Tracing the history of Latino artists making country music (2024)

Audio transcript

FELIX CONTRERAS, HOST:

Just a quick warning - this episode contains explicit language.

From NPR Music, this is ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras.

ANAMARIA SAYRE, HOST:

And I'm Anamaria Sayre. Let the chisme begin.

CONTRERAS: (Singing) This ain't Texas.

SAYRE: Oh.

CONTRERAS: (Singing) Duh-duh-duh, duh. Duh-duh-duh (ph) ...

SAYRE: I - no. Felix.

CONTRERAS: (Singing) ...Duh, duh, duh, duh (ph). What, man?

SAYRE: It's a nice song.

CONTRERAS: It is a great song.

SAYRE: (Laughter) Let's let Beyoncé sing it.

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

SAYRE: You know, I had a friend who used to say that to me all the time, every time I sang - who sings that song? Yeah. Why don't you let them sing it?

CONTRERAS: Oh, that's kind of cold.

SAYRE: It's brutal.

CONTRERAS: It's very brutal toward me.

SAYRE: (Laughter) I'm sorry. I take it back. I'd listen to you over Beyoncé any day, Felix.

CONTRERAS: But you know that - that's only because I've been listening to that Beyoncé record all weekend.

SAYRE: Oh, my God. I've listened to it, like, 10 times already.

CONTRERAS: I like it for a whole bunch of reasons, but I'm still trying to process everything that it means and everything that's there. But one thing in particular, even before the record came out - when that song that I just butchered came out, conversations have been stuff that we've been talking about - who has a right to sing, in this case, country music?

SAYRE: Right, because obviously there's been a massive contribution from Black artists to country music. But there's also been, like with many things in this country, a huge Latino contribution in many ways.

CONTRERAS: And there are and have been many, many Latino artists singing country music - straight-out country music. And a lot of those artists - either African American or Latino musicians - they don't get the recognition. And they haven't been getting the recognition for not just a contribution to the history of country music, but also the state that it's in now - like, where country music is today and how these musicians are contributing to that tradition.

SAYRE: It's like this thing we always talk about - about genre just being this construct from labels to sell music. And it's widely known that, you know, country was made to be seen as this white genre, because that's what labels wanted, when in reality, there's actually tons of Latino and Black artists who have contributed. But that recognition goes down to literally who's getting radio play. In fact, in 2021, there was a study by Jada Watson, the principal investigator of SongData. They found that in over 11,000 songs played on country format radio from 2002 to 2020 - that only 0.6% of those songs were from Black artists, but also that only 0.4% of those songs were from Latino artists.

CONTRERAS: So we're going to try to set the record straight this week.

SAYRE: Like we love to do.

CONTRERAS: OK.

SAYRE: (Laughter).

CONTRERAS: We're going to feature Latino artists who are playing country music and talk a little bit about that history as well. And to do that, we went to...

SAYRE: (Imitating drum roll) Where are we this week, Felix?

CONTRERAS: ...Austin, Texas.

SAYRE: You finally came with me.

CONTRERAS: Yes. (Laughter) I joined you on a trip. We went to Austin specifically to talk to Carrie Rodriguez, a Latina who has been performing country and bluegrass music for her entire career.

SAYRE: And she's such a delight.

CONTRERAS: Let's go back a few weeks to when we were in Austin, Texas, with Carrie Rodriguez.

Carrie Rodriguez, welcome back to ALT.LATINO.

CARRIE RODRIGUEZ: Oh, thanks so much. I'm thrilled to be here.

CONTRERAS: It's good to see you again.

RODRIGUEZ: You, too.

SAYRE: Carrie, this is also our first time meeting - ever. I've heard a lot about you, so...

RODRIGUEZ: Well, I've heard you and your beautiful voice. But, yes, it's exciting...

SAYRE: (Laughter).

RODRIGUEZ: ...To be sitting next to you.

SAYRE: Well, I, too, had heard your beautiful voice. What a coincidence. This is amazing (laughter).

RODRIGUEZ: Sweet.

CONTRERAS: Funny how that works out.

(LAUGHTER)

CONTRERAS: One of the things we wanted to talk about in this episode was the idea that you can be Latino, and you can sing country music. And it doesn't have to be affected or appropriated or anything like that.

SAYRE: We have to preface this, Carrie, by saying, Felix and I had a lot of arguments over this episode.

RODRIGUEZ: Really?

SAYRE: Uh-huh.

RODRIGUEZ: What were they about?

SAYRE: I think what excites us about Latin country and what we think - like, our conceptions of it might be slightly varied, is what I think it is.

CONTRERAS: Fundamentally, right off the bat, it's the way you label it. It's not Latin country. For me, it's Latinos who sing country.

RODRIGUEZ: Sure.

CONTRERAS: OK. So that's - that is - that's the idea. That was the concept behind the show...

SAYRE: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: ...Initially.

SAYRE: And I actually don't disagree with that. Like, I think to me, I was confused by the label Latin country, because I was like, well, what makes Carrie Latin country, besides the fact that she's Latina? That doesn't really make it Latin country. There's - but I'm curious if Carrie would herself label herself as Latin country.

RODRIGUEZ: I'm shaking my head no.

SAYRE: I was, like, she's shaking her head, but...

RODRIGUEZ: No. I mean, who I am doesn't form my music and the way I write a song. So I guess in that sense - I've never even heard the term Latin country. But the sound of what comes out of my mouth or how I play the violin, fiddle, is country. It is country. And I don't differentiate - yeah, cultures when I think about country music necessarily, because I see it as a blend of so many things.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IT WAS ALWAYS YOU (SIEMPRE FUISTE TÚ)")

SAYRE: Well, so that makes me curious - and I'm jumping here - but - straight to kind of the conversation that Felix and I had. It makes me curious where you stand on what is maybe more accurately Latin country or something that could be considered Latin country, which is an actual, like, fusion or blend of Latin sounds and country music - or in the case of some Latin artists, like, most recently, obviously, Carin León has - I'm sure you heard the single that came out. He is obviously, like, a straight-ahead Latin artist, who is now releasing a country song.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IT WAS ALWAYS YOU (SIEMPRE FUISTE TÚ)")

CARIN LEÓN: (Singing) Te di el corazón y madres te valió. Mandé a la chingada a todos por tu amor. Y nunca estás contenta, no. It feels like, baby, maybe it's you.

SAYRE: Where do you feel like that sits? Is - do you and Carin León - in this world - exist in the same universe or is that just an independent thing from anything that you're doing?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. I do believe there is a place for him to be labeled as country, because in my mind so much of Mexican music is country music. So, like, ranchera music, for example. Ranch music, right? I mean, that music came out of people who had to leave the countryside and leave their homes - right? - and go work in the cities. But they had this nostalgia for home and for being out in nature. And it's, like, so much thematically of what country music - and I'm using air quotes - but what we think of as country music is.

So I've always seen that connection and felt like Mexican music and Texan country music are, like, super-linked and really kind of the same. Like, I hear - when I hear, for example, a songwriter like Chente or, like, Cuco Sánchez.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LA CAMA DE PIEDRA")

CUCO SÁNCHEZ: (Singing) De piedra ha de ser la cama. De piedra las cabeceras. La mujer que a mí me quiera. Me ha de querer de a de veras. Ay, ay, corazón, ¿por qué no amas?

RODRIGUEZ: To me, that's so similar to a Merle Haggard.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BIG CITY")

MERLE HAGGARD: (Singing) I'm tired of this dirty, old city, and tired of too much work and never enough play.

RODRIGUEZ: In terms of theme, I mean, the songs are so freaking sad. And they make you cry your tears in your beer or your tequila or whatever, right? But it's - at the heart, it's, like, the same to me. So I don't necessarily think - yeah, you have to separate.

CONTRERAS: Musically, they're different.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: But thematically it's the same. That's why my mother loved country music...

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: ...'Cause they said, why - when we were kids, we were like, why do you like the country music? Well, it's the same as Mexican music. You tell stories. It's about sadness. It's about love, blah, blah, blah. But - you know, but mariachi - obviously the mariachi song structure is a honky-tonk song structure. The conjunto song structure is different, but it's - thematically, they're singing about the same stuff.

SAYRE: You know what's so funny, too, Felix, is my mom also loves country. She's always said to me - like, no one in my family does except my mom. She's like, I just love the stories. That's, like, you know...

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

SAYRE: ...That's the constant thread. But do you hear anything in the music that's outside of the lyrics, like, stylistically, instrumentally, like, actually musically that feels similar between the two?

RODRIGUEZ: I totally do. I mean, I - like, I think - well, first of all, like, so many country songs are in three and have that feel. Like, and I'm - I am referencing ranchera music when I'm thinking about these similarities. But, like, these, like, kind of behind-the-beat songs in three - the violins, the melodies, 'cause, like, to me, one of the greatest things about country music - and Mexican music in general - are melodies. Like, we got melodies, you know, and they stick in your head. So, yeah, I do hear a lot of similarities.

And then also, like, you've got - there's so much that has influenced country music here in Texas.

(SOUNDBITE OF BOB WILLS AND HIS TEXAS PLAYBOYS SONG, "NEW SAN ANTONIO ROSE")

RODRIGUEZ: I've heard that, like, a lot of Bob Wills & The Texas Playboys - you know, a lot of the, like, melodies and tunes were actually songs he learned from, like, Mexican people working in fields that he was working with out in Texas.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NEW SAN ANTONIO ROSE")

BOB WILLS AND HIS TEXAS PLAYBOYS: (Singing) Oh. That San Antonio rose. Ah.

RODRIGUEZ: There are fiddle tunes that he does that are - sound like mariachi music to me.

CONTRERAS: I think one of the best ways to at least identify how this works is - talk to us a little bit about how you grew up and what kind of influences you were hearing as - when you were growing up in your household.

RODRIGUEZ: OK. Well, I come from, you know, bicultural parents. My mom was white - born in Houston. My dad was Mexican American, also born in Houston. And I mostly grew up with my mom in the house - didn't see my dad that much, although the place where we connected was music. So his music did have a big impact on me.

CONTRERAS: When you say his music, what did he play?

RODRIGUEZ: So he was a folk singer-songwriter. He came up in the '70s with artists like Townes Van Zandt. Like, they shared stages all the time. And his style of music was very much in that vein of telling a story, fingerpicking. It's a little bit country. It's a little bit folk. But he also sang in Spanish, too. And I have memories of him singing, like, "Volveré" or "Los Laureles," for example. And every time he would sing those songs, like, I would want to cry.

(LAUGHTER)

RODRIGUEZ: And I hated that (laughter). So musically, that's what I was hearing from him. My mom, though, had such eclectic taste in music. And she would blast opera in the house and folk singers and everything - The Beatles, and, you know, the gamut, so a lot of things.

CONTRERAS: So - and then at what point did that inspire you to pick up the violin?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, that came pretty early. I was 5, and they were offering Suzuki violin lessons in my elementary school.

CONTRERAS: Yeah.

RODRIGUEZ: And it - for whatever reason, I'm like, that squawky, high-pitched thing sounds so fun. So I - yeah, I started taking - in kindergarten and it just was fish and water. Like, I never wanted to do anything else. But this was classical music that I was studying.

Now, growing up in Austin, I was exposed to country music everywhere. You know, like, I would go see shows. My mom took me to see Itzhak Perlman, but she also took me to see Uncle Walt's Band down at Waterloo, who's - you know, like - so I saw fiddle players and songwriters and everything, and - but was pretty serious about my classical studies. I even got into a conservatory, Oberlin, for my first year of college. And I was there, like, on a full scholarship, supposed to be practicing my Tchaikovsky every day or whatever. But I realized as soon as I left Texas, I was, like, sitting in my dorm room playing country music records - CDs, OK...

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

RODRIGUEZ: ...And trying to learn the fiddle parts and missing that music, which is so crazy. I don't think I'd ever thought about it much, you know. And I'm listening to Townes, and I'm listening to Robert Earl Keen and Lyle Lovett albums...

(SOUNDBITE OF ROBERT EARL KEEN SONG, "FEELIN' GOOD AGAIN")

RODRIGUEZ: ...Just - that's what I wanted to play, even though I had this amazing - I was at this amazing school with this big opportunity. But I realized that wasn't for me. Like, I missed the music of Texas.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FEELIN' GOOD AGAIN")

ROBERT EARL KEEN: (Singing) Standing down on Main Street across from Mr. Blues, in my faded leather jacket, my weathered, broke-in shoes. A chill north wind was blowing, but the spring was coming on as I wondered to myself just how long I had been gone. So I strolled across old Main Street, walked down a flight of stairs, stepped into the hall and saw all my friends were there. A neon sign was flashing - welcome, come on in. It feels so good, feeling good again.

CONTRERAS: And that - is that when the violin became a fiddle?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. That's when I got it strangs (ph).

(LAUGHTER)

RODRIGUEZ: You like that?

(LAUGHTER)

RODRIGUEZ: Well, no. People - they always go, is there a difference between the violin and the fiddle? And you go, well, the violin has strings. Fiddles got strangs.

CONTRERAS: We'll be back to our conversation with Carrie Rodriguez right after this.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "FEELIN' GOOD AGAIN")

KEEN: (Singing) But I wished I had some money with which to buy...

SAYRE: And we're back to our conversation with Carrie Rodriguez. You were born and raised in Texas. And because of that, this sound - it was in you. And it came back to you at a time in your life when you needed it. So there is something to be said about the authenticity of you creating within this genre in that sense.

RODRIGUEZ: Mmm-hmmm. It's true. And it has taken me a long time to find my most authentic - well, I'm still searching - but to really find my most authentic self within that sound. And, you know, that's maybe a lifelong, like, journey.

CONTRERAS: Having followed your career - like, I think we first met in 2005 when you were in the duo of Chip Taylor & Carrie Rodriguez.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RODRIGUEZ: (Singing) I'm so sorry that she hurt you. You know the way she is.

CONTRERAS: What's been fascinating to me - and you and I have talked about this before - is how you - it almost felt like when you released "Lola," you were looking for something within yourself. You were going back to the Spanish-speaking, the Mexican part of your history because you based it on, I think, your aunt.

RODRIGUEZ: My great-aunt.

CONTRERAS: Your great-aunt.

RODRIGUEZ: Eva Garza, yeah.

CONTRERAS: Yeah. So talk to us a little bit about going from classical violin, then playing fiddle and then trying to understand a little bit more about the Mexican side of that.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. I mean, yes, I guess I started singing with Chip Taylor and playing fiddle with him in 2001.

CONTRERAS: Wow.

RODRIGUEZ: I was so young - baby. And, yeah, those early years, I mean, the way I sang and used my fiddle was very much straight-up country. You know, I was - the way I sang - if you go back and listen to those records - so much twang...

CONTRERAS: Yeah.

RODRIGUEZ: ...Because I was singing country music. I don't know. It just came out that way. But after time, like, it did start to feel like I was just leaving out so much of me. And around that same time, my grandma - this is just so cool that she did this. She'd always talked about my great-aunt Eva and said, oh, you have this famous great-aunt, and she sang with all the big stars. And she was in Mexican films, and - I mean, I believed her. But I also thought maybe she was exaggerating a little bit because that's what grandmas do, you know?

SAYRE: Believe me...

(LAUGHTER)

RODRIGUEZ: You know, so - but one day...

SAYRE: Don't I know it.

RODRIGUEZ: ...She sent me a stack of CDs that she had burned from all of Eva's old albums. It was so much music. And I just remember putting on the first one...

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ARREPENTIDO")

RODRIGUEZ: ...This is when I was living in New York - and hearing her voice with, like, a full mariachi band, you know, and just crying, like, sitting down on the couch and crying and realizing that this was also me.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ARREPENTIDO")

EVA GARZA: (Singing) Tarde que me invita a conversar. Con los recuerdos. Pena de esperarte y de llorar. En este encierro. Tanto en mi amargura te busqué. Sin encontrarte. ¿Cuando, cuándo, vida, moriré?. Para olvidarte.

RODRIGUEZ: And the way that music made me feel is - I could say it's similar to the way I felt when I heard my dad sing in Spanish - those songs. So that was the beginning of my journey of, OK, well, maybe I'll sing one song in Spanish at the end of my set. Let's just see what happens. And then maybe I'll add another. And so little by little, I started incorporating that into my music, and then that came into how I wrote a song. So even now, today - like, I just wrote a song the other day, and it's totally Spanglish (laughter). So yeah, it has been a long - that's - this is over, like, 20 years...

CONTRERAS: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: You know?

CONTRERAS: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, it's been a long journey.

CONTRERAS: So where do you feel like you're at now on that journey? Is it - are you equally comfortable, like, not taking ginger steps but actually, like, striding into the musical room? If we can imagine music as this big parlor - right?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: ...Speaking in Texas terms, are you striding in there with (laughter) - you know...

RODRIGUEZ: I think it - parlor, I don't think - I think dance hall.

CONTRERAS: OK. Dance hall. All right.

RODRIGUEZ: Let's say dance hall.

CONTRERAS: Dance hall. Right. Yeah.

SAYRE: (Laughter).

RODRIGUEZ: I was like, parlor makes me think of, like, 1800s, like, England.

CONTRERAS: Yeah, well, that's what I was thinking of, right?

RODRIGUEZ: The parlor.

CONTRERAS: Parlor.

RODRIGUEZ: OK. Dance hall. Yes.

CONTRERAS: So striding into the dance hall, just - and equally confident in both?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. I'm going to use the example of the gig I did the other day. I did a gig for our Laboratorio series, which - it's a musical celebration and exploration of Latinx culture. OK, that's the byline. So our two guests that we featured were Rick Treviño - Latino country singer.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DOCTOR TIME")

RICK TREVIÑO: (Singing) Maybe the jukebox can heal up a heartache, but I go into debt.

RODRIGUEZ: And Ruben Ramos, who is the king of Tejano music.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CRYING TIME")

RUBEN RAMOS: Es el tiempo de llorar. Vas a dejarme.

RODRIGUEZ: He's a legend. He's a pioneer. And he actually helped shape the sound of Tejano music, bringing the big horns into it. And he's 84 now, I believe.

CONTRERAS: Wow.

RODRIGUEZ: So in the same show, we had Rick singing country songs and Ruben singing Tejano songs, right? And I was accompanying them both and playing fiddle with Rick and violin on "El Rey" with Ruben and jamming on his blues, like, Chicano soul kind of numbers. And honestly, I felt so much joy being on that stage and being able to jump around with those genres and also feeling that it's all connected. Like, Tejano music is so American, right?

CONTRERAS: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: It's so - and so it's like everything we were doing on that stage just felt like it was rooted in Texas, and it was authentic and soulful. One of the first big bluegrass festivals that we played, MerleFest, and it was - it's a big one. It's in North Carolina. I don't know. It's 20,000 people there or something, right? And I'm playing onstage with Chip, and all of a sudden, it dawned on me.

I'm, like, looking out at the audience and I only see white faces, and then I'm thinking about who's playing and who's on the bill. And I realized in that moment, oh my God, I'm like the only Latina, Latino at all in this whole place. I really felt that, and it was a kind of a shocking discovery. You'd think I would have noticed before that, right? But it took being at a place with a bunch of people to realize, oh, right. OK. No, I am different - in this setting at least.

CONTRERAS: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: Right? I don't even know what I did with that at the moment. I just have this vivid memory of the realization that I was alone there in that sense.

CONTRERAS: When I met you guys in 2004, 2005, you were firmly in the whole Americana scene, which is, as you described earlier, a little bit of country, a little bit of folk.

RODRIGUEZ: Right.

CONTRERAS: Is that how you would describe Americana?

RODRIGUEZ: I don't know. It's so vague.

CONTRERAS: It is very vague.

RODRIGUEZ: It really should - well, I don't know that it should. But Americana, you would think, would encompass all roots music from this country.

(SOUNDBITE OF CAR HORN HONKING)

RODRIGUEZ: So technically...

CONTRERAS: My ride's here - got to go.

RODRIGUEZ: I think Americana should be just as much, like, conjunto and Tejano music as it is the blues, you know, as it is bluegrass.

CONTRERAS: Right.

RODRIGUEZ: Now, is it? No, I don't think so - not yet. That's why - but this friend of mine coined the term Americhicana (ph) talking about my music. It's my favorite thing ever. I use it all the time. So when someone asks me what kind of music I play, you know, now I don't have to say 10 different things. I just look at them in the eye, and I say Americhicana. And...

CONTRERAS: That's awesome.

RODRIGUEZ: Some look confused, but some get it.

CONTRERAS: Yeah.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

SAYRE: That is - I love that you said that. Like, Tejano and conjunto should be - should fall under the Americana category because there's also so many people that just want to throw it under regional and...

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

SAYRE: ...Be like, well, that's whatever. It's, like, so emblematic of what these genres are.

CONTRERAS: Rhiannon Giddens, the very well-known banjo player who played on the Beyonce record, wrote a piece - an opinion piece about the controversy, all the conversation. But she's - but one of her concluding lines was that all of this music - it comes from so many different places and, as you just said, from all of these different cultures. So they can - they should all be called Americana music. They should all be called country music. It's all wrapped into the same thing.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, yeah, agreed. That was a great article. I love that.

SAYRE: Yeah. And I did really like how she outlined the fact that everything was so much more regionally aligned, which, to me, then, like, gets into that conversation, too, where we're talking about Texas music, specifically Texas' proximity to the border, like, the synergy between all of these sounds. And it's like, well, it's all within this region. Get rid of the border.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

SAYRE: And it's all within this region, right?

RODRIGUEZ: This region that was Mexico - exactly right.

SAYRE: I mean, with that in mind, like, I'm bringing it back to this question that's been interesting to me. I brought up the cariño thing. I also brought up to Felix earlier the fact that even Juanga experimented with country music at a certain point. Like, where - is there an authenticity to that? Is there a legitimacy to that given their proximity to the border, or is this a uniquely this side of the border American country experience?

RODRIGUEZ: I think there is a legitimacy to that also because Texas was Mexico, right? And, like, we share a history that goes back for so many generations. So when I think about this region, I don't necessarily see that border. And for so many years, too, the border was very fluid. You know, it's really only, like, in the last 20, 30 years that it's been so intensely divided. And so, yeah, I don't have any issues with an artist like that singing a country song, calling it country music 'cause I feel like we're all kind of from the same place.

SAYRE: It is interesting to me, the timing of all of this, because as regional Mexican music is getting more and more play - I mean, it's always gotten play on the border, right? But in other parts of the United States, I'm being told by a lot of people in Mexico that country music is actually getting more popular. Like, American country music is getting more popular in...

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

SAYRE: ...Mexico. Like, there's actually an intercambio, in some ways, happening with this music.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. That's exciting. I think that's great. Yeah.

SAYRE: There is this question, like I noted earlier, when you mentioned, like, ah, and these sounds that came back to me, and I felt the need to do - there is something about what you have within you musically, life experience-wise - you name it - genetically - I don't know - that, like, is - you're born and bred Texan at the end of the day. And that sound lives within you. And so I understand to a certain extent, like, oh, if you're going to make this type of music, there has to be some relationship there. Where it gets sticky to me or where I get kind of curious or interested is, as we're talking about, the border doesn't really exist. Like, this regionally - like you said, Texas used to be Mexico. So there is this question of, is there a certain level of that inheritance for Mexican artists on the other side of the border? Like...

CONTRERAS: Are you looking - both of you guys are looking at me.

RODRIGUEZ: I know 'cause he had a funny look on his face. I'm like...

SAYRE: Get used to it, Carrie.

RODRIGUEZ: OK.

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

RODRIGUEZ: What's going on in there?

CONTRERAS: When you ask these questions - 'cause I don't have an answer other than, you know, history. But we - like, why doesn't this music exist, you know, in Arizona or along the California-Mexican border, right?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: You know what I mean?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: It's like, because Texas is so unique that way with the music and musical influences. Certainly accordions exist from - you know, for all along, Texas, Arizona into California. Accordions - that's the whole thing, right? But, like, it doesn't - it just pops differently here in Texas...

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: ...The whole country thing.

SAYRE: We have all these conversations about, like, race in this country and conflict in this country. And yes, it's - that's real. And it's happening, and there's so much of it. And especially you look at a place like Texas, and there's like - you're trying to fit all these puzzle pieces together of people who maybe don't even want to be fit together.

But then you go to something like the Houston Rodeo, and it is just, like, everyone enjoying music, enjoying life, enjoying the same things, having the same experiences and Latinos going to country shows and white people going to, you know, see Latin artists like who I was with, Ivan Cornejo. And it's like, I'm not saying everything's kumbaya because you pull out the guitar and - yeah, but at the same time, like, we all want to cry to something. Like, everyone wants to, like, sing. That's why country and regional and whatever, they, like - it's all storytelling. It's like the deepest connection - right? - to, like, being a person, is sharing your story through music. So it's like, why wouldn't we all want to listen to that?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. I mean, it breaks down all the barriers and the walls that we have, and it just immediately gets rid of that.

CONTRERAS: And when you add in the African American influence with the blues and the fiddle music and...

RODRIGUEZ: The fiddle music, man, old-time fiddle music.

CONTRERAS: It's - it adds a whole different layer, which is what the whole national conversation is about, right?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: What we're trying to do with this show is just establish a place in that conversation for the reality that Latino musicians also have a place at the table when we're talking about who has the right to sing country, right?

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: That's my official statement, and I stand by it.

RODRIGUEZ: I like it.

SAYRE: Well, I can't argue with that. Carrie, it's interesting that you talk about, you know, this flow that you have with now starting to write some songs in Spanish as well because one of the artists I brought, his name is Sammy Arriaga. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's a Miami born, very young Cuban American artist based in Nashville so did not grow up with these sounds but very much was, like, attracted to them. Despite the fact that he grew up with all these kind of, like, various Latin, specifically Cuban sounds of Miami, he was attracted to the country sound.

So he moved to Nashville, and he writes these very much straight-ahead country songs. But he has some Spanish versions of certain songs. He has, you know, some Spanglish versions. He specifically labels them as Spanglish. And he's gotten quite the following on TikTok by basically either countrifying (ph) - country-ifying (ph) popular Latin songs or vice versa by doing certain Latin songs with a country twang. So it's really interesting what he does musically, and he has this one really cute song, "Banjos And Bongos." It's just like a love song, right?

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "BANJOS AND BONGOS")

SAMMY ARRIAGA: (Singing) You be the Al. I'll be the oha. I'll be the lime in your Coca Cola. Can't wait to see where the song goes. You bring the banjo. I'll bring the bongos.

SAYRE: Like, it's silly, silly lyrics. But it's a really cute kind of like simplification of this, like - he's like, it's so simple. Like, it's a simple love song, and it shows the synergy between what he's trying to do there. It's really quite lovely.

CONTRERAS: Exact same story as Raul Malo for the Mavericks.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THERE GOES MY HEART")

THE MAVERICKS: (Singing) There goes my heart, breaking in two. There go my eyes...

RODRIGUEZ: I was going to say, like, I think Raul Malo, like, paved the way for Cuban Americans to sing country music. And be really good at it.

SAYRE: Well, and that's what's so funny, is he talks about, you know, being born in Miami, having all of these Cuban influences and kind of just being really attracted to this country sound.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. I mean, like when you hear - I just went back the other day, I was listening to some of the earliest Mavericks. They had huge hits in the '90s. And here's a, you know, Latino front man leading a country band with Flaco Jimenez taking the accordion solo. And this is on mainstream country radio - so pioneers.

CONTRERAS: Incredible pioneers. He's - the one time I attended the AMERICANAFEST in Nashville, he was voted into their Hall of Fame.

SAYRE: Yeah.

CONTRERAS: You know, he's...

RODRIGUEZ: As he should be.

CONTRERAS: He's the legend.

RODRIGUEZ: He is.

CONTRERAS: And the voice...

RODRIGUEZ: And his voice - I swear to God, his voice keeps getting better and better...

CONTRERAS: Exactly.

RODRIGUEZ: ...If it's possible.

CONTRERAS: Exactly.

RODRIGUEZ: I don't know how that's possible.

CONTRERAS: Exactly.

RODRIGUEZ: But yeah, he is. He's - if I had to pick one favorite singer in the world, it's him.

CONTRERAS: Wow.

SAYRE: Wow.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah, it really is. It's just - he's the Roy Orbison of our time.

CONTRERAS: Wow. Because recently, an all - finally, an all-Spanish-language Mavericks album...

RODRIGUEZ: And it's so good.

CONTRERAS: Oh, my God - killed, killed.

RODRIGUEZ: But I'm excited to hear the new one. I haven't listened yet.

CONTRERAS: Yeah. Yeah.

RODRIGUEZ: That's on my list this week.

SAYRE: And I do feel like there's other artists in a similar position to you who have this cultural inheritance that aligns with country music. I mean, there's this artist who's called Louie TheSinger, another really young country artist, who's from out of Texas - Fort Worth, Texas. And he literally has songs where he specifically talks about his right to performing this music, his song in particular, "Come And Take It."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "COME AND TAKE IT")

LOUIE THESINGER: (Singing) Texas bulls, Mexican rules, single cab with a Colt to shoot. Got a dog named Chill (ph), and he loves to fish. If I ain't country, then what is this? They say I ain't country. But my people started this thing they called country back when a man had to crop with his hands, work the land before money. I shouldn't have to fight for what's mine, but I'm taking it back. Take it from me. Come and take it. Come and take it from me.

SAYRE: Literally talking about his right to perform country music. He says, they say I ain't country, but my people started this thing they call country. And he kind of goes through outlining - almost like making his claim for, like, all the things about him that make him country, that make him entitled to perform this music because clearly, like, there has been a question of his entitlement to it. He also mixes a lot of moments of rap and hip-hop into his sound, which I am, like, that is only something that could happen in this country. There's not really a rap sound that's super popular in Mexico right now. So it's very much an American artist making an American sound.

CONTRERAS: Carrie Rodriguez, thank you so much (laughter). Thank you for - so much for coming to talk to us about this. It's - you're obviously the first person I thought of to talk about this. I think it helps everyone understand a little bit more about what this national conversation is about, so thank you.

RODRIGUEZ: Thank you so much for having me. It was really fun to talk. I mean, it was actually kind of therapeutic.

CONTRERAS: Good.

RODRIGUEZ: Let's do it again.

SAYRE: That's what we do here.

CONTRERAS: (Laughter) Therapy.

RODRIGUEZ: Free therapy.

CONTRERAS: I think we have to end this show on - it's probably my favorite, and you know, it's my favorite song of yours, "Lola."

RODRIGUEZ: "I Dreamed I Was Lola Beltrán."

CONTRERAS: And - you and Javier Solís.

RODRIGUEZ: Yeah. And we were dancing and canoodling.

CONTRERAS: Baila-baila-bailando...

SAYRE: Like two little peas in a pod.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DREAMED I WAS LOLA BELTRAN")

RODRIGUEZ: (Singing) Blanco y negro - in a worn-out picture frame. Y en el otro lado - date is written by your name in monochrome, but I know those lips were red. Ribbon microphone, early '40s CBS, film and flash and lens and light and such. Give me a photograph that I can touch. I dreamed I was Lola Beltrán, and you were Javier Solís. We were baila-baila-bailando while you sang to me, while you sang to me.

CONTRERAS: It's a great song. First time I heard it, I just like - 'cause it's so - it just said everything about me and our culture, you know? I dreamed I was Lola Beltrán, and you were Javier Solís. You don't have to explain who these people are. If you get it, then you know, right? It's like you just - you get it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DREAMED I WAS LOLA BELTRAN")

RODRIGUEZ: (Singing) Round and round strings are in and out of tune. Real time sound captured in the room...

CONTRERAS: Signing off from Austin this week, you have been listening to ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras.

SAYRE: And I'm Anamaria Sayre.

CONTRERAS: Our show this week is produced and edited by Joaquin Cotler.

SAYRE: Our digital editor is Hazel Cills.

CONTRERAS: Grace Chung keeps our team together.

SAYRE: Thank you, as always, to executive producer Suraya Mohamed and VP of music and visuals Keith Jenkins.

CONTRERAS: Thank you for listening.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I DREAMED I WAS LOLA BELTRAN")

RODRIGUEZ: (Singing) And you were Javier Solís. And we were baila-baila-bailando while you sang to me. I dreamed I was Lola Beltrán, and you were...